Paul Granger, Where Did You See God? Resilience in Life and Leadership Episode 043

Stephanie has a fabulous conversation with Paul Granger. Eye opening and encouraging!

When asked who he is, Paul likes to say "a child of God and ambassador of Christ",  because he's learned that these elements of his identity supersede and shape the rest.  One of the ways God has invited him to live out the call to "love God and love others" is through the "shepherding gift": providing pastoral support, creating space for conversation and community, and advocating for those that may go unseen.

Functionally, he has spent the last two decades serving with various ministries, and now serves full time alongside YWAM in loving his neighbors in authentic ways.  He also loves to create, whether it is his podcast "Where did you see God", writings, or videos.  He loves spending time with his wife and kids, and they see their home -- which God gave them in a crazy way -- as an important piece of how they love their neighbors as a lifestyle.

https://www.wheredidyouseegod.com/

Everyone has resilience, but what does that mean and how to we use it in life and leadership? Join Stephanie Olson, expert in resiliency and trauma, every week as she talks to other experts living lives of resilience. Stephanie also shares her own stories of addictions, disordered eating, domestic and sexual violence, abandonment, and trauma; and shares the everyday struggles and joys of everyday life. As a wife, mom, and CEO she gives commentaries, and, sometimes a few rants, to shed light on what makes a person resilient. So, if you have experienced adversity in life in any way, and you want to learn how to better lead your family, your workplace, and, well, your life, this podcast is for you!

https://stephanieolson.com

INSPIRE your team to LEAD WITH SUCCESS and MOTIVATE others with Stephanie bringing 20+ years of speaking experience. If you need to EMPOWER, ENGAGE, and EDUCATE your people-Book Stephanie as your speaker today!

https://www.stephanieolson.com/ask-stephanie-to-speak

Everyone has resilience, but what does that mean, and how do we use it in life and leadership? Join Stephanie Olson, an expert in resiliency and trauma, every week as she talks to other experts living lives of resilience. Stephanie also shares her own stories of addictions, disordered eating, domestic and sexual violence, abandonment, and trauma, and shares the everyday struggles and joys of everyday life. As a wife, mom, and CEO she gives commentaries and, sometimes, a few rants to shed light on what makes a person resilient. So, if you have experienced adversity in life in any way and want to learn how to better lead your family, your workplace, and, well, your life, this podcast is for you!

https://stephanieolson.com
https://outlawstreamers.com/

Transcript

Stephanie Olson: 0:03

Welcome to resilience in life and leadership with your host Stephanie Olson, speaker, author addictions sexual violence and resilience expert. Welcome to resilience in life and leadership. And I am ready to introduce to you Paul Granger. When asked who he is Paul likes to say a child of God and an ambassador of Christ, because he's learned that these elements of his identity supersede and shape the rest. And one of the ways God has invited him to live out the call to love God and love others, which is biblical, yes, is through the shepherding gift providing pastoral support, creating space for conversation and community and advancing those that may go unseen. I love that. Functionally, he has spent the last two decades serving with various ministries and now serves full time alongside YWAM. And loving his neighbors in authentic ways. He also loves to create, whether it is his in his podcast, where did you see God writings or videos, and he loves spending time with his wife and kids, and they see their home, which God gave them in a crazy way as an important piece of how they love their neighbors as a lifestyle. Welcome, Paul. Hello, and welcome to resilience and life and leadership. And I'm excited to introduce to you to Paul Granger. Hello, Paul, how are you?

Paul Granger: 1:33

Hello. I'm doing great. It's great to be here. And I'm excited to have conversation I have

Stephanie Olson: 1:38

to. So you are doing some really cool things I really love. I love what your story. I definitely want to hear crazy prayer things. I want to hear about some of that stuff. Because I get that I have had that myself. But first just you are. You're working with YWAM. So Youth With A Mission and and I just want to hear kind of how your journey led up to that and what God is doing in your life and how we got you there.

Paul Granger: 2:08

Yeah, yeah. So it is it's quite a story. And there's many directions I can go. But I think where I need to start because you know, I don't know, when you talk about God, I don't know where your listeners fall on that. I imagine there's some that are like, yes, yes, I love God and others who are like I've been I've always believed in God, but also, I've been praying and he has an answered prayer. And then also some who might be like, I thought this was about resiliency and leadership. Right? I didn't see God in the title. And so what I want to encourage people with is, you know, God plays a big role in my life. I believe God exists. I believe he speaks in the works. But a lot of what I've learned is also stuff that can be valuable for someone who is still wondering who God is, or doesn't know that God exists, right? Because we're all designed in the same way. We're all humans with these fallible minds and fallible understandings that are trying to navigate this fallible world. Yes. And some of the things that, you know, we can learn along the way can be transferable. Now, there's some things that I'll share that really do play into the idea of believing that God exists and that you can talk to him. But my hope is, is that for someone that's particularly on the fence about God, that this might encourage them, because one of the things that makes it hard for us to actually trust God believe that he exists is the reality that hard things still happen. Yeah, it's reality that will try to seek Him that will try to do the right things. And still bad things happen. Or someone who's not trying to do the right things is thriving, or like, yes, come on God, if you're a loving if you're just what's the deal, and I, I really had to press into this a number of times my life, but back in 2013, I was working for the Salvation Army Boys and Girls Club, and I loved it an amazing place, an amazing team. I loved working with the teenagers that I was serving. But a number of things were happening that made me feel like it might be time to transition, including the birth of our first child. And

Stephanie Olson: 4:15

that always does it by the way. Yeah, it plays

Paul Granger: 4:18

a pretty hefty role and what your life will look like. And so because I say that I believe in God, because I am trying to orient my life around that belief, I should probably incorporate God into that decision making process. And so I began praying about it. Alright, God, what should I do? What are your thoughts? And, you know, oftentimes when we pray, we're looking for God to give us answers. That's really what we want. Just tell me what to do. And do we really

Stephanie Olson: 4:45

want the answers we are looking for too, right?

Paul Granger: 4:49

We're looking for the answer for the short question of like right now. Yeah. And based on my desires, and a lot of times when God doesn't answer it's because he's actually looking at a much bigger cause. question that we haven't been willing to ask yet or too scared to ask or Yeah. And so, you know, the short version of that story is God didn't give me a direct answer. One thing I learned is that if you're, if you're praying about something, and you're asking for guidance for God, if it's something he definitely wants you to do, he'll he could throw out a yes, but we want that neon less that neon Yes, all the time. That's like a rarity. If it's something you shouldn't do. He's pretty good about throwing a no out there. Yes. But it's in that in between space. A lot of times, I feel like what God is trying to say to us is you're you're getting so honed in on trying to make the right choice that you're missing the bigger invitation. Yeah, I'm just inviting you to seek me. That's what you're doing. You're praying so great. Choose whatever you're wanting, I'm not against go ahead and choose the bigger thing is, Are you seeking the in some sometimes we have to step forward and a 51%. Right. And that's where I was, there's this local ministry, that through a series of events that seemed like it was from God, a role opened up that seemed tailored to me. And as much as I loved the Boys and Girls Club, and I didn't want to go like I finally I was at 51%, go into this new ministry, this other ministry and, and I went that direction. And I share that because, again, when you feel like you're trying to seek out, then you feel like things should work out. Yes, that was the start of the hardest five year period of my life. And it didn't start off hard in the sense of what it became, it started off hard in the sense that the role was more than it really should have been. I was running an internship program, for example, that when I was hired, had five year long interns. But once I was hired, they had just admitted the next class that had jumped to 12. Oh, that's a big difference, almost triple the scope and what they did. They all worked in the same area when I was starting, but the new class would be split into two different areas. So the scope of this one piece, yeah, had increased and there wasn't a framework and nothing was built out, it was still very much a grassroots organization. It's like, Hey, we're gonna go in this direction, we'll figure it out as we go, which can be great. Also, if you're stepping into something new that you didn't choose, it can be hard, because you have to build it out now, right? That was one of basically three roles that I held. And when I was hired, I was told look, you know, we're kind of in a place where we have to wear a lot of hats. But I can tell you, this is not sustainable. And so at some point, this has to change. But right now, are you willing to persevere I'm like, Yeah, I've been doing ministry for a while, like, I get it multiple hats, hard work, I'm good. And a year later, things were in works for it to change. But then another staff unexpectedly left, and the person that we were hiring to take on one of my roles, was a perfect fit for this newly vacated spot. And I was trying to be prayerful about it, my God, like I really need this person. And based on some ways, things were going I'm like, if I give this person up, I don't know that another opportunity is going to come by anytime soon. And I might be stuck in another year. But I felt a sense that, yes, this is what I'm supposed to do, I suppose to release. And so I told the other person, look, I know that we are far enough in the process, that they're supposed to work alongside me, you're gonna be in a harder place. So go ahead, take the person. And sure enough, like no other opportunity open up the scope of my role increased. There is a press a pressure, sometimes there's a pressure all the times in life, but increasingly so in ministry in churches that success and value is measured by outcomes. So yeah, your church is a successful church, if it's a big church or ministry, number eight, if you got big numbers, right. And one thing that I've learned just in life and another ministry roles is it's just not always the case. It's not always the case in life. numbers alone. Don't tell the story. But also sometimes you can have Singler numbers. Yeah, that produce incredible impact that maybe you don't see at the time. Maybe it's not the impact you were looking for. But it is the impact that needed to happen. Yeah. But the expectation was growth, growth, growth, and there was a change in leadership. And this is someone who came from a corporate environment where that was very much like growth in numbers was the big thing. And for some reason, something happened. I can think of one particular meeting that might have been the thing but he was the type of person that could quickly make up his mind about someone. Okay, then that would be who they wouldn't change, right? And if you matched up with how he defined hard working, success driven, you know, all star worker, then you're good. Sometimes even if you weren't, I guess I saw that happen. And if you didn't match it, yeah, then you could exhaust yourself trying to prove yourself and it not work out. We are completely different personalities. We are driven by completely different things right and I do not work in a corporate environment by design, like, I know that I'm designed to function and thrive in ministry context. Yeah. So we got off to a wrong foot. And that foot was never fixed, never amputated, it was just silly. And at first, I thought it was just frustrating at first, and I was very confused. And I, I tend to give people the benefit of a doubt. And so the corrections that he was giving, I was like this. Does that make sense? Where's this coming from? But I'll try. And I'll do this. Maybe if I do it this way. We got about six months in, was the first time he said to me, Look, I just don't know that you're a good fit here. And maybe you need to think about doing something else. At this point. I'd invested a lot a couple years why I actually knew that the way that I was functioning, like I was prayerful from start to finish. Yeah, I feel like I'm supposed to be here. I know that I'm producing value, I'm good at what I do. So like, I don't know that I agree with this assessment that I'm not the right fit, right. Because again, what I didn't know then is that the fit was fitting this certain mold producing specific outcomes. Now, here's what's hilarious is at the time, like I continued to push this, I had to match this expectation of more and more and more interns, even though I knew that wasn't a healthy thing. I knew that wasn't the best thing. And I began to learn, I don't even think it's as possible as he thinks it is. Because in the corporate world, maybe you can amass a lot of interns because there's money involved in that there's no money really involved. And

Stephanie Olson: 11:29

it's very different. It is it's very

Paul Granger: 11:31

different. And but here's the thing, I came to find out a few years in, I started doing some research reaching out to similar organizations, an organization where I had been an intern once. And that a Model A lot of what I did after, and when I was there, they they were struggling to get year long, folks. But the summer, they could get enough folks, but I reached out and they're like, No, like across the board. All of us are struggling to find interns like this one location, like I was thinking about leaving their internship program because they just can't get folks to come in. And that gave me a little bit of peace on two levels. One, okay. It's not my incompetence that's causing right to be a struggle to get folks and to, I'm actually getting folks, I'm getting more folks than some of these established organizations. So I might actually be good at what I'm doing. But it wasn't being seen. There is one particular moment after that first hard conversation, where I immediately I was like, I can't, I can't be in an environment like this, like that this meeting was incredibly crushing. And I was accused of things that weren't accurate. Like, I don't, I can't be an environment like this. So I'm gonna start to find another job. I was mad at this boss too. And the course is a very short time, maybe even within a day. One, I felt like I was inviting me to not leave. And I was like, ah, and then two was feeling like I was inviting me to show love to this boss that I had justification for being mad at. Yeah. And one of the ways that God's designed me is, you know, you've got the fivefold gifts and scriptures is talking about the apostle. Some are made to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, teachers. Shepherds is where I fall most and what I really feel like that is the capacity to see and walk alongside others. And so what was really annoying is from the start, I knew that this was going to be a hard role for this new boss coming in. He was taking over from the founder, right? He was taking on an organization that was displaced, right to Yeah. And so from from even before he started before our first meeting, I'm like, I'm, I'm going to be a loyal employee. Like I'm going to, I'm just going to I'm going to support this guy, right? So like to come from that place, and to be in that place, and then get hit as hard but God was like, nope, keep on going. He kept on bringing to mind things that this guy was going through, even outside of the work environment. And I'm like, Alright, like, I can't I can't villainize him. Yeah, I can't blame the you know, there's a scripture that says The battle isn't against flesh and blood, right? You want to make it about flesh and blood people and this person. Sometimes it's not that sometimes it's not good guys and villains. And so but I was like, I don't know what to do here. So I guess I've got to work harder. It was a grassroots ministry environment. So people are mostly casual. I started dressing up button up shirts, I started arriving early, leaving a little later, I worked through lunch, I produced monthly reports, I, you know, built out these programs. I got this the sheet that has this list of stuff that I did just prove that I wasn't incompetent, prove that I wasn't hardworking. And one of the most deflating moments was after six months of that. He ended up saying, like, in my presence, like we were the only two in the room. It wasn't directly to me. It was almost like an aside comment. He said, You know, I just I wish I just wish you would put more effort into your work. And I'm like, but that's all I've been doing. Like if he had said you're not producing good work. That's yeah, we could talk about that. But I was put up for effort. And yeah. And that was the first moment that I, I didn't get it then. But I began to realize this reality, that we want to believe that we can change people's minds. Sometimes you can't. Sometimes you could do everything, right. But it was never actually about you, or what you were actually doing. So that means that sometimes you can't actually change that person's perception, right. But we will exhaust ourselves, we will exhaust ourselves. And that's what I did. I equated it in my mind to it was like, I'd fallen into this pit. And it was this deep, dark pit. And I didn't want to be in the pit. And I wanted people to help me out. And it felt like some people didn't notice I had fun. So pit. By the way, I should mention the other elements of this is that this ministry was deeply tied to my church, a friend group and my community. So we live together, we play together, we work together. So there was no escape. It wasn't like I could come home from downtown and like, let it go, like, right was constantly around me. And it also meant that the people that were wounding me, were also friends with the people that I wanted to be able to see me and yeah, they couldn't see they could couldn't see, they couldn't understand. They couldn't believe that it could because this is a ministry and was a great ministry. So could these negative things be happening? And so I'm in this pit, and I'm longing for someone to see me. And the worst is when somebody would see me and would blaming, like, Oh, this is this is your fault, or are you sure this is really what's happening, or I had someone who was a close friend, we we would meet for prayer for years early in the morning. And his he ended up accused because he was friends with the other party. He ended up accusing me of a lot ended up reprimanding me at times, and ended up ultimately saying, like, you know, you need to take you're just not taking any blame. I mean, I spent a lot of time over those years, taking on the blame, blaming myself more than blaming others and trying to prove myself and after years, after years of this you know, I kept on coming back to a place God, I cannot do this anymore. Another hard meeting would haven't got this is not working. Can I leave. And I began to feel stronger and stronger. Like God was inviting me to stay in wasn't promising you better way

Stephanie Olson: 17:31

that you're saying that God was inviting me to stay? And I would probably say he wouldn't let me go.

Paul Granger: 17:41

And I've this language of invitation is one that I've fallen into more and more because we do think of it as like, like we said earlier, God telling me what to do. Yes. Like, this is an orchestrated thing. And we got to crack the code. We also when hard things happen, we can feel like it's God, like are gonna get you. But he was inviting me because he was trying to do abundantly more than I could ask or imagine what I was asking for what I was imagining is for my boss to see me accurately, for my job to be actually sustainable. And for me to be free to actually operate and things I was good at. And that makes logical sense. Like, who wouldn't want that? Right, right. And what I love about that passage where it says God's able to do abundantly more than you can ask or imagine is, what it basically means is, it's like God's hearing what we're asking, seeing what we're imagining and saying, I get why that sounds good. You can't see what I see. But I'm actually after something much bigger than a good work environment, I'm actually after something much bigger than you. Yeah. And I want to invite you into what I'm doing. Because I know now on this end, a lot of why I was invited to remain is because I was able to stand in the gap and protect a lot of young folks who are coming in to do internships coming into a very hard environment just in general, but the where the organization was and there was then the hard stage of transition. So there was a lot of messy and dropped things. And like I was able to stand in the gap, I was actually able to provide a level of consistent spiritual support and equipping that might not have been there otherwise, even in the midst of a ministry because there was so much work that needed to be done. Right. Right. Like I, I was the one thinking No, there needs to be a spiritual stuff, touch point, so and so. That's a lot. It's great to be invited by God to serve in those ways. It was still hard because on my end, yeah, it was miserable. Like I hit the most hopeless point I'd ever hit. And what I realized it was on the closet floor one night, and I'm weeping and I had other things going on in life too, that were compounding on this, but I'm like, God, I've done I've done everything. I've done everything. And it's very clear now that nothing's going to work. And it was almost like I was saying to me once about time you realize that it's not up to you, right? Right, because yeah, human logic totally made sense. I cannot have a healthy work environment until my boss sees me accurately, I cannot have a healthy job until the responsibilities are realistic. And no matter how much research and evidence I brought about people who did similar roles that were like, I do a third of what you do, and I'm exhausted, like, like I, God was invited me to see that there's, maybe there's something he sees, doesn't. And this was the big one. There was a two part meeting after something particularly rough happened, that I invited in someone who is a spiritual father for me, Pastor for both of us, but also on the board of the of the ministry, to very hard meetings where it became honored, utterly clear, if it hadn't before, that there was absolutely nothing I could do to prove myself that I was being accused of things that weren't actually my fault, and at times where the other guys fought, and that there was no way he was going to allow my role to become sustainable or healthy. And what the invitation ended up becoming then was through this, the pastor, he basically said something to the effect of you don't work for this person. You don't work for this organization, you work for God. So what is your boss God telling you to do? And I said, I feel like he's inviting me to stay, but I don't. But if I stay, once we get to December, you know, I can tell you exactly what's going to happen, because I've been here and it's repetitive year after he's like, don't worry about December. Yeah, that's gonna work that out. If God's telling you to stay, then that's what you get to do. Yeah, right. And the big twist, though, right, because I've been to that place before and stayed was different is recognizing that reality that I don't work for this person I worked for God meant that if I to the best of my ability, I was trying to seek God and what He was inviting me to do, and then I was doing it, then I could have confidence in that. I didn't have to prove myself to my boss, I didn't have to prove myself to others. I could look like a fool to them. Yeah, and have peace because I knew I was doing what God was inviting me to do. And it didn't matter what happened in the job. Because God was my boss. And, and he would take care of me. And it was like, a light came on in that pit. And one of the things that I realized when that light came on is I had felt utterly alone, like God had abandoned me. And it was almost like, in my mind, I picture I look at the wall, right? The first part of it is I look at the wall, and I see the claw marks of my futile efforts to get out. And I can see I was never gonna get out of here. Yeah, yeah. But then I look in the other direction, and they're sitting on the ground is Jesus. He's been with me the whole time. He's been with me in the midst of the loneliest, darkest part, he never left me like it was just this clear sense that this whole time, it was so hard for me because I felt like I had to prove myself, because I felt like this situation had to be a certain way, because I was starting to feel hopeless, because I felt alone. But when I actually began to see what was actually true, that God did see me that I wasn't alone. That yes, things were hard. But God was actually trying to do something bigger than what I was after, right? There is this freedom. And I felt this release. Now we were supposed to have a clean slate. But a few days later, we had our first meeting. And he came in with a four page document of something that I'd done wrong. He approached it differently. But he still had a four page document, something I had done wrong in his mind. I knew I hadn't done anything wrong. I understood. I saw his mental pathway. Yeah, I also knew he was wrong. And what I felt like I was saying is, you don't have to defend yourself, you don't have to prove yourself. And I felt this release, because before I had to, or else, he's just gonna fire me, right. This time, I didn't have to. So I answered his questions, but I didn't do it in a defensive way. And by the end of the conversation was the first time in years that he let something go, that he didn't acknowledge that he was wrong, but he just let it go. And I was like, Oh, well, we're in a whole whole new world that's numbered. Yeah. And I mentioned that my pastor said, once December comes, God is going to work it out. There was absolutely no way that anything could work out to make it better. I was wrong. come December, something happened. That was so mind blowingly only through God, that I was like, Okay, this is something different here. I was able to operate in a level of peace and joy that defied understanding. Now, this is where in the story people are, like, Yay, this is the ending of the story. No, because,

Stephanie Olson: 24:29

of course not.

Paul Granger: 24:31

The mindsets had not changed, right. And a new person had come started working for the ministry and there's I'm not going to get into the weeds. And I I'll say anytime you sense hesitancy it's because I know that I'm still friends with people connected. So like, sometimes they'll start to say something. I'm like, man, but there are people that might hear this that might still doubt my story and my Yeah, but I will say this. My last few months there became pretty miserable because When I was hired, the person who hired me said, Look, I don't when I bring somebody in, it's because I know them, I trust them. And I know thereafter what we're after here, so I give them the keys. So that's where I started is the keys of the car. The next guy that came in was like, Yeah, sure you still have the keys. But we're gonna transition over to one of these vehicles where it has the steering wheel on both sides. So at any point, when you're learning how to drive, I can grab the wheel, I can write brakes. And that's what it was, is I was never actually in control of the car. Even if it looked like it was in the driver's seat. I was never in control. My last three months, someone else was put over me that was appear was new, and so is a really insulting. But it was like he took my keys and kicked me out the car. Like over the course of the months, without even me being talked to about it. I started losing authority over things, things that I was in charge of, I suddenly found out was starting to be done outside of me meetings that I should have been a part of. I would walk by a room and they're talking about my area of responsibility. And I'm like, so again, God, what's the deal guy? Like, can I go? I'll stay if you want me to stay. But can I go? Silence? Silence, no answer. And I've been in that place enough to know that silence doesn't mean that God's not communicating silence doesn't mean that God's ignoring us sometimes. I'm asking the wrong question. Sometimes silence is simply God saying just hold up. Wait. It's like a kid who asked, Are we there yet? Are we there? I can answer your question. But it's not going to change what's actually going on in you, you just want to arrive. And so God just patiently was silent. And I knew I came to realize, I think the guy's inviting me to wait. And it was strategic. Because what ended up happening is things were in play, to get me out of the organization. That led to a meeting on August 2 2018, where I was invited in and ultimately fired, like, told, basically, all I was told is we just don't think you're a good fit. And boom, it's done. That should have been the most soul crushing moment because I had invested five years I had prayerful I had sought God from the start God, should I go to this place? Right? So God, what are you doing, but what God was doing was actually preparing me for something abundantly more, right. And he actually gave me a heads up that week that this was going to happen. And it was such an out of the place thing that on the day, I came home to grab something. And I saw my wife and I was like, hey, so I got caught us for this meeting. And I think I'm gonna get fired today. And she's like, there's absolutely no way. Because if you were doing something wrong, there would have been a corrective conversation before, if you weren't producing enough there would have done like a 30 day plan, they're not going to fire you. And I'm like, actually, I think I'm gonna get fired. And I'm going to this coffee shop. And as I'm reaching for the door, I'm trying to think, What in the world could they possibly say? Well, if they say this, well, I could tell them about this. And if they say this, I'm thinking about this. I actually had like this packet of papers. Yeah, right. Of all the body of work, that the things that I built, the outcomes I had produced, like I had that, right. And all I heard God saying was not an antenna. That's not what this is about. I do not want you to defend yourself. I do not want you to protect your job. I want you to represent me well and be who have invited you to be and was able to go into this space and receive what should have been the most destructive news and actually be able to go home and smile. Why not? Did I like what happened? No, right? Was it right? No. Like it wasn't right. What happened? To this day? I still have like, trauma responses. Yeah, things that happen over the course of that five years. To this day. I still doubt myself because when you are fired, or whatever term you want to let go terminated. When that happens. It hits you internally. Yeah. It makes you wonder what do other people think about you? But God had already prepped me to say look, it's like she was saying people thought a lot of wrong things about my son. So you're in good company. Yeah. It's the whole sharing in the sufferings of Christ. It's right. The goal isn't for everyone to see you accurately. The goal isn't to avoid looking like a fool. The goal is to be authentically who God's invited you to be. And there are a lot of authentic God Vollers that look like fools Jesus looks like a fool John look like a fool David look like like a lot of people that look like fools. And so you know, the start the opening question. You know, you talked about why wham. And what's beautiful is I don't know that my path would have I would not have my path would not have led there by my own efforts. I actually had connected with YWAM years before when I worked at the Boys and Girls Club. They had been running a ropes course I brought the teens there. I had connections there throughout the years. When I lost the job, I felt a few invitations for God one was do not operate out of fear right now because at the time I'm a husband, I'm a home owner, and I'm not just a parent of two, my wife was pregnant with our third child when I lost my job. So I'm like, I have to make money. Right? Right God, like I have to make money. And the only way you make money is you win the lottery, or you have a job. So I have a job, right? And God's gonna, you think you need money. I'm telling you that I'm provider, what you need is me. I can provide through a job or through people, for free sources, you can even imagine I can make money appear in a fish's mouth, do not operate out of fear, do not get a job because you need a job. Here's the other thing that God didn't tell me them. But I began to learn. The other reason I wanted the job was because of how I looked. Right. Unemployment does not look good. It's not a good outfit. And I already had a lot of people questioning me, like, speaking for years, people speaking negatively into my identity, calling me incompetent like all these things. And nothing would just prove them more than if I got like, a really good role, right? And then I could come back and say, Hey, I'm the executive director of this organization. What do you think about that? Right? Like, there's a part of me that kind of wanted that God's like, I get that, yeah, I need you to release that. I need you to release all these things that you think you need, and I need you to trust me. He invited me into six months of unemployment. That time was one of the most beautiful seasons of my life, because there's so much that I knew that God equipped before that God was inviting me to do that, even in ministries. I was stifled, because, unfortunately for a lot of ministries, they get caught up on the financial piece, because you gotta pay the bills. Like I get it, like there's a logical piece. But sometimes that can lead to outcomes being hurt. Sometimes that could be lead to donations being the goal, even in the most well intentioned moments, it can stifle, yeah, the invitation that God's given when it would look like foolishness to go that direction, well, nobody was paying me a paycheck. So I was able to serve in some really beautiful, authentic ways, including, that's where the podcast started, I didn't even want to do a podcast. But God was invited me to public transparency. And that was three and a half years ago, I didn't know if it would last more than one, but I'm still going yeah. And I've been able to, like experience just God working through conversations in a beautiful way. But at the end of the six months, I found myself in a position where I was at the last four stages for this really good reputable job where it would pay enough money, and people would respect me, I had a few other opportunities that one guaranteed I would be able to get this job if I wanted to, you know, another one would be ministry based, I would have to raise support, but they had already offered me the role. And then there was this conversation I had with a guy named Chris, then chuck, who is leading over at wire enrichment, who he basically, we had been having conversations we had connected because of the unemployment unexpectedly we knew each other, but our friendship deepened. And he basically said, Look, I want to invite you to pray about joining our team. Like I know you, I know how you operate. And what he basically said is it's not we're trying to fill a role. It's not that you have to do this certain thing, like your job would be to do whatever God's inviting you to do, including your podcast, your podcast would be part of your ministry. I'm like, Man, that's cool. I don't have to fit that on the side. Yeah. And so it's this beautiful thing I can do whatever it is, God's inviting me to, I'm already respected coming into it. The one caveat, there's no money. Nobody in YWAM gets the page that everybody raises support, right. And so to go from unemployment, to having to live off support could seem like a foolish thing, especially when I had a newborn at home. But God had been pushing the reality of who he is, as provider, as wise as one who does abundantly more. And he had already put some things in place to give me a peace and knowing that guide, he actually can do it, including where our money had already was, should have already run out by that. Right, right. But not only did it not run out, I had been in the hospital for weeks, a baby had been born our cat needed dental surgery, we had to do some car repairs, like additional things Christmas doll in that time. We didn't even have to scale back how we were living. We weren't living extravagantly, because again, I was ministry worker. Yeah. But we didn't have to go to ramen and bread and butter, like, so counted already pronounced sided. Yeah. And so I took what definitely felt like a leap towards foolishness. But I also knew was a leap towards God. And I knew that even if things didn't work out, I know, within myself that I'm stepping towards God, I'm not stepping towards money. I'm not stepping towards reputation. I'm stepping towards God. And I and I believe that he's going to catch me even if part of me is still. That was three years ago. We have not missed a bill. We did not lose our home. We have not had to scale back and go to bread and butter that God has continued to provide. It's been three and a half years since I've gotten a traditional paycheck. Right? There was a two year season where my wife felt like I was inviting her to leave her job. And then we did the YWAM if you work Why wham, one of the invitations is to do what's called a discipleship training school in order to be on staff. This is one of the elements steps to get there. And we were able to go as a family and do this. And we didn't have the money for it. And of all places, we could have done it in Richmond. God invited us to do it where that started, which is why wham Kona in Kona Hawaii. So we lived in Hawaii, why is three months to live? Like, not something we would have ever have dreamed? Oh, and we lived there for three months. And that's amazing. And so, you know, in all of this, you know, we talk about resilience in life. And yeah, right. Yeah. And we're told resilience comes from just from resolve, or comes from building up the skills and those those are great things. But what happens when your resolve is there? When your skills are there? And you're still getting beaten down? Yeah, what happens if your app operating like you're supposed to operate? That you are, you are operating with integrity, that you have been very mindful, and you're still getting punched down into a pit? Like, what do you do then? And for me, the answer was, to find out what what do I really believe about God? And how willing Am I to trust that? That's right, because Christians will say a lot of things about what they believe about God. But the moment things get hard that resolve falters a little bit, yeah, the moment it looks like we're gonna lose something like the rich young ruler came to Jesus is like, how do I get eternal life, Jesus said, sell everything you have, give it to the poor, and follow me. There's too much that was too crazy of a call too hard of a call, like we had this happen. And we will make up, make decisions not to try to dishonor God, but to try to protect in the ways that we feel like need to protect what I had the privilege through this hard season, to recognize that sometimes resilience comes from believing that God actually is who He says He is. And he can actually do abundantly more, even if it looks like significantly less is in the midst. I love

Stephanie Olson: 37:00

that. Oh, I am I am digging this conversation. I gotta tell you, there's so much that is resonating with me and so much that God is just personally taking me through some stuff. That is just right on what you're saying. And I think that sometimes, when it's a Christian that's hurting you. Yeah, it's that much harder. Because you're like, God, can you not tell them that they're being a jerk? You know, I mean, it is so, so hard. I love this story. Because this is about what God does in the face of our circumstances. And that, frankly, he's not trying to change those. He's trying to change us. And he can do incredible, incredible things. But we do have to trust him. We have to trust him. I actually just gave a message called the end of the story. And it's all about, you know, I'm an avid reader. But I like the story. I don't ever want to turn to the end of the chapter, and know how a book ends. But when we grow up reading the Bible, or knowing the Bible, we see the story of Abraham, and we're like, awesome, Abraham, God's gonna prevail. Well, Abraham didn't know the end of his story, right? We don't know the end of ours, but he trusted God through that. And I think that, that is so beautiful. I love that. Oh, my goodness. Okay.

Paul Granger: 38:35

Well, and that story piece to what's beautiful is, we can get frustrated with that idea. Because we're actually thinking about stories in the wrong way. The reason that we might jump to the end is because it's really just a conveyance of information for us. Like, I want to know what happens. What are the course of events? What's the outcome, like? And it's, it's all about the information. Yeah, but a good writer isn't just trying to give you information. Like they're trying to take you on a journey. They're trying to help you to experience stupid things like there. There are things that you experience about Abraham, that if you didn't know the depth of the pain that he had to feel in his heart when he had to sacrifice Isaac, right? Like, like, if you just knew just thought about the information, you might miss the humanity, the reality exactly. And then life, God is after abundantly more, he's not just trying to tell us what jobs to have, what to do, and get us to a certain outcome, because like you said, he is trying to grow and mold us. But he's also doing all this with eternity in mind, Scripture is very clear that all this is going to fade away. This is not our home. Right? Right. And we even recognize even if somebody didn't believe in God, like right, it's just a few generations that you're remembered like even the memory of you unless you're someone significant is gone. Like I'm working on my family ancestry right now trying to find out and it took forever to finally cracked the code of who my great grandparents were. But what that made me realize is that like man, like those those people like nobody, like nobody knows who they are anymore and

Stephanie Olson: 40:05

that you are literally related to you don't even know them. Yeah, blood literally right? Yeah,

Paul Granger: 40:10

no. And, and yet, this is what we will we will focus so hard on the here and the now. Yeah thinking that that's the thing that lasts when there's something that lasts far beyond that that money can't actually capture. And God is looking at our story that he's writing for us. And he's like, you're still thinking temporal, like, there is a reason that I'm not telling you. It's because I'm trying to do something within you now and how you see me and how there's a reason I didn't give you this thing you prayed for because there's actually something better there is a there is a there is like God sees so much more. But yeah, keep on reading stories in that informational way, rather than trusting the journey that the writer has written?

Stephanie Olson: 40:53

Absolutely. Well, and, and I love that you work with youth. And that, because I think when you're talking about things like this, I personally in my day life, I run a nonprofit. So totally get all of the whole money things and what you're saying. And our mission is to provide prevention education to youth, and families on human trafficking, social media, safety, health relationships. And so we go into schools, we talk to youth, but that's, that's who we serve. And one of the things about youth that is so striking to me, and I think we as adults fall into this quite a bit. And when you're in middle school, that might as well be forever. That is life, you know, you're not getting out of it. You don't. And, and I think that sometimes that's where God has us in that place. That is, okay. Am I going to get out of this situation? Or beyond this situation? Whether it's good or bad? This is the moment that I am kind of captured in? And I can't see beyond that. And that is? That's a tough place to be, I think.

Paul Granger: 42:09

Yeah. And what's so hard too, is that it's, it's shaped by so much, right? It's shaped by our own desires of how we want things to work. But a lot of times even our desires are shaped by external forces. Yeah, what what are we told is the way that things are supposed to go? What are people around us experiencing? How are we comparing to them? What are people actually saying to us? Whether they believe it themselves or not? That's how much I mean, employment is one of those areas, right? Is there is an expectation that you either work, you landed in the money, or if you're unemployed, it's just bad, right? You know, there's something wrong with you, right? And we're conditioned into what works supposed to look like how it's supposed to feel, and, and all these things, but it's so much about reputation, it's so much about like, there's no respect for the service worker, right. But for the CEO, right, right, there is there's respect and there's so there's so much that shaped and then when an individual is trying to figure out their place in the midst of this, particularly young adult, young adults is where I feel like that is most position me in the recent years, who are in this season of, they're still in the midst of youth in a sense, but they're on the cusp of adulthood. And it's murky, and it's unclear when you fully transition and how you transition where you go. And there's so much pressure, about figuring out what you have to do. And also figuring out what God wants you to do. And do those things come together. And how do I know? And I'm asking God, and he's not telling me and I and I and like hyperventilating? Yeah, having a quarter life crisis. And, and it's heartbreaking, because so often, the fears that exist, aren't actually real fears. No, but they, they we've we will find ourselves inundated in this and get to a place like you mentioned where it's like, and now I don't see a way out, right? Because the only pathways I'm aware of are all these and either I don't want to go down that path, or I don't even know how I can go down that path. Yeah, and there's this passage that talks about the wide gate and the narrow gate in Scripture. And a lot of people find the wide gate and some don't find the narrow gate and I I pictured as though this it's this wide road that has been heavily traversed. Maybe it's a straight road and you can see Yeah, there's a city at the end of this road. Yeah, so that's inviting a lot of people gone down it it's easy to see it's clear and there's a destination why would you ever choose this overgrown weeded path that about five feet in it turns and you have no idea where it goes and there's Are you gonna get lost? Right hills? Breyers snakes? Yeah, it's dangerous. Yeah. And the only thing making you consider going down is the fact that you see Jesus veering off the Y road down this dark path, right and so the question becomes, now, why am I choose The path that I'm choosing, and there are all the reasons to choose the normal, logical paths. The only logical reason to choose that path is because that's the one that Jesus going down and he invited me to follow him. Any other things like, oh, because I like adventure? Well, you like adventure until your life is at risk in a significant way, or your loss or you're tired, or, or right, like any of our other reasons are going to hit a point where they're not enough. And this is why when Peter was walking on the water, like, he had a lot of reasons that got him to actually walk on water for several steps. Yeah, the the moment he stopped was because all of those reasons faded away, he saw the waves, he was too far from the boat to be able to swim back. And all that was left was the only reason to take another step forward is because Jesus invited them right. And that reason wasn't enough. And he sank, and Jesus still loved them and pulled them out. Right. So like in life, it'll look like there's no way forward there will look like where Jesus is inviting us is, is a foolish path. And he's not telling us where it leads. And the thing is, is that where it leads us to him, like it's not about any functional destination, as we understand it, it's him. So even if I land in unemployment, even if I land at a job, where I'm almost 40, and I don't get a paycheck, and I'm right, like I could, I could think about it in human terms and make a case for how foolish I am. But I can also step back and say, I've seen what God's done. Right, right. Like, I know how he's worked. This is why God invites us to remember, because it's easy to forget who he is and what he's done. But when we remember, yes, we can put that up in place of this big logical mindset we have and say, even though it doesn't make sense, this actually was true. So how could this still be true? If God is the same yesterday, today and forever?

Stephanie Olson: 46:53

Well, and I think that's the problem with American Christianity, because we really do have an easy road. And so when when God says, Okay, follow me down this path. And it just, that doesn't make sense. But you look at some places in our world, where, you know, like, Hey, you get to follow Jesus. Now, here's the thing, your family's probably going to be get killed, you will probably be tortured and die. But this is the end result, and people are running in droves. And I think that's one of and I'm I, I am happy to not have the persecution that they have. Right. But I think that's one of the things that we lack here. Because we don't get to see God work in some of those incredible incredible. Yeah, yes. So speaking, that was

Paul Granger: 47:52

the wisdom when Jesus Well, I'm just going to add to that what Jesus said to us is, hate your father and your mother. Hate your children hate your own life? Yeah. But dying to sell. And that that's, that's why he was so wise in saying that is because as long as you have things, and that's what we have in American culture, like, advancement, job security, reputation, like as long as you have things, our default is going to be to protect and hold those things. What do we mean, when you don't have those things when you release them? When you're in an environment where you don't have it? It's a little easier to see what's actually true? Yeah, not what you believe is true,

Stephanie Olson: 48:29

which is why there is so much growth with our I mean, if if we've got this time, where God strips everything from us, we have a choice, we can either turn to God or turn away. And when we turn to Him, and Jesus is all we have, it's amazing what he does in that time period. And so yeah, yeah. Okay, so that kind of leads me to crazy prayer things. Let's talk about that.

Paul Granger: 49:01

So you got to hear one crazy prayer things, which is I'm in a toxic work environment where I'm being accused of things that aren't true. And I cannot prove myself no matter how hard I work, I pray and God invites me to stay. Yeah. People did. Like, I actually had people close to me that at times got upset with me because it seemed like I was being really stupid. Yeah, you're doing this to yourself. At this point, Paul, like at the start, I felt bad for you. Then after a while, I was like, ah, but now, after a few years, you're you are choosing to stay here and there was someone who was in an HR role, who basically said the same kind of things like this is on you, like you're choosing to stay on like, this is A Minute of jury. Where's why I'm coming into the mix of this conversation and calling and like things that we claim to believe and so to stay in a place that I didn't want to stay. That seemed destructive, because God invited me to say Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. And I can see on this end, how God has worked through craziness. The other big story, and this is where the phrase I started using a lot is, I posted on Facebook a fall 2016. So I was in the midst of the rough of it. And I posted it on Facebook. Hey, we feel like God's inviting us into this crazy prayer thing. I can't tell you anything about it yet. But if you want to jump in and be a part of this crazy prayer thing, start praying and God knows what you're praying for? Well, what I was referring to is that God invited us to pursue a house. I did not want to pursue a house when I was in the midst of a rough, rough, toxic. Yeah, right. Right. I did not want to pursue a house when my wife was part time with the church. I was working for a ministry so we don't have the money that God had already blessed us with a home. So I was I was happy with where we were living. And I'm constantly cognizant of how, how much we have compared to how many how little so many of the world has Yeah, and so I can never feel justified saying I need more space. Because there are people living in a fraction of what I have if that friends that I have in the community that are unsheltered. So I was a hard know, when this idea of another house came up in the house that we had walked by a lot. And it's a beautiful house. Large, beautiful house right on the corner, right catty corner to one of the housing projects, huge yard. And so in terms of a space where God could do amazing things for the community. We weren't alone. And having that sense. A lot of people would actually looked into and pursued this house. It never went anywhere. Because the guy who was living there was saying, oh, I want a million dollars for it. And then he didn't laugh. You brought down 500,000 He didn't laugh. And at the time in the community, the house in the state that it was in, really should have definitely should have been less than 200,000. Wow, maybe well, less than that. And it was just constantly overpriced. And we thought it was abandoned because it looked like it was boarded up. But it turns out someone did live there. He just put paper over all the windows. Oh, he was still they were looking to sell it. And then my wife was like, Well, you know, what do you like we had gotten to a point where we decided no, we're not gonna buy anything. But she saw the sign. She's like, I kind of want to see inside and we're like I kind of went see inside too. We left thinking we're absolutely not getting this house because the floors were splintered. The walls were led paint. There's no closets in the bedrooms, right like really the kitchens falling apart Nicola older houses, they just didn't like closets. I guess they liked wardrobes, I don't know, weird. And so it was a hard No. Until one day I'm coming home from work. And the house was just a few blocks from us. But it was out of the way. But I felt like I was inviting me to drive out of the way. And then I found myself feeling like I should pray about this house in the sense that I got was I felt like God was saying, I want you to pursue this house. And I'm not promising you're gonna get it. Kind of crazy. Okay, pursuing a house is not a small thing. No pursuing a house that you might not get in, you know that you might not get it further. It's kind of crazy. When you don't have the money when you don't want to even buy a house when it's a house that's falling apart when it's overpriced. All these things, but we felt like I was giving us an invitation. So we took a step. That step revealed a lot more impossibilities, but also reveal moments where God suddenly showed himself in unexpected ways, sources of income that we just came out of nowhere. Two people in the same day called my wife and said, Hey, we there's a job opening up with the Ministry actually same ministry that I worked for. So my wife was also working for the ministry that I got, okay. Like, at the same time, that was a whole other part of the whole conversation about

Stephanie Olson: 53:48

that experience to her relation, right. That's not good. But

Paul Granger: 53:52

there is this preschool, that our, our kids had been a part of that we love that she actually taught out and the director position was opening. And two people called and said, we really want you to apply for this job. Like she was not planning on leaving the part time at the church. Definitely not for full time anytime soon. But like, because we had just, we had two young ones at that point. But yeah, she felt this piece about it, hilariously, the location of it half a block from the house, we're looking at this, right. And so all these things are happening. It gets to a point though, where, like, we're in contracts, but we don't know how this is going to work out. They're not pulling back or anything we're like, but you've got wires twisted together and duct tape wrapped around like, you're gonna need to come down on price or you're gonna need to cover these things. Nope, absolutely not. We're not going to like oh, hold and strong. And it got to the point where there's no way this is going to work. All that's left is for us to sign the papers and I could see the house from our kitchen window like it was tall enough that it would just over the trees. And in the morning, the morning sun would illuminate that first a top of the house. And in the good moments. It's like oh, it's a sign from God in the bad moments. It's like insulting. Oh my gosh. And I'm fixing my eggs. And I'm lamenting that we're not going to get the house, we've put so much into it that somebody else is going to move in. And I felt like what God was saying to me was like, what is it that you're actually after here? Because it doesn't seem like it's me. Because when he said to pursue the house, the reason he said but I'm not promising you're gonna get it is because he actually wanted us to pursue him. That's what this was all about. After goal, this was not to get a house. And when I realized that, I realized that my lament was founded in logical, but was because the outcome, the goal was the house. It was this good heart check. And I'm like, Alright, God. All right, I hear you. I'm still in this. I'm still I'm still game to stay at the table. Even though right now, I don't know how this goes any further. But I'm, I'm here for it. And sure enough, a few more months, somehow, the table didn't disappear. Things didn't clear up. But God continue to show himself and on March 15, to 2017, easily one of the hardest moments of my job moment, not just like, in what I was going through. But with my responsibilities, like, that was the height of the busiest part of my season, like the middle of me running a month long of service groups, the directement. I'm like, God, you're funny. But we got the keys. We got the cow. Wow. And then we had to go into the renovations. And we didn't have the money for that, like, but I can't tell you to this day, how it all worked out. Like we, whatever money we had to cover, like was was barely enough to cover maybe the most vital stuff like you know, electricity, right? Yeah, small stir. But we were able to do stuff that we did not think we were able to do. And I can't tell you to this day, how the numbers work out. It's not like we suddenly got a large, anonymous $50,000 gift or something. It's like God provided God provided. I don't even know how he did. And so it all started with our willingness to seek God. And then he comes at us with this invitation we didn't know is coming. And the question became, are we willing to trust God that much? To step towards something crazy, something illogical, something that people will look at us and say, Are you sure about that? Right? You might be being irresponsible. You have kids, you need to think about this. What if you lose everything? Like, are we willing to trust God enough to step into the crazy to embrace looking like fools because the wisdom of God is foolishness to man? Yeah. And, and that happened before? The whole job thing. So it's like, it wasn't even about the house. It was about me understanding who God was, how he can operate and how he can do abundantly more so that when I found myself a little bit later that year, having that hard meeting, where God was telling me to stay, and I was like, oh, it's gonna work. Like, I had this touchpoint of knowing. But here's what I know about God. Now, here's how I know he can work. Here's how I've seen him work through impossible. So maybe I can remain in this environment, even though everything seems horrible. It helps when I lost the job and was able to trust God to step into unemployment. It helped when I was approached about why wham was able to say, oh, I can go into this knowing I can work when my wife felt like I was inviting her to leave her job. And everyone's like, okay, it's one thing for Paul, but for both of you to lose income, right, right. And through the pandemic, all the way up until now. Like these moments, these crazy prayer thing moments have helped deepen my understanding that God is God. Yeah, that He is powerful. But it's also good and loving. And even if it doesn't play out the way that I want it to. It's because what I wanted was so much lower than what he actually had.

Stephanie Olson: 58:39

Yeah. Okay, I'm super inspired. I really am. It's not often that I walk away just going, Ah, I just from a from a podcast, I think like, I just needed God used this to just speak to me. So I, I really appreciate everything you've said, this has been amazing. Thank you so much.

Paul Granger: 59:03

And I appreciate the opportunity. And I want to say this because I there is a takeaway that someone could get from this that I do not want them to get. And the takeaway could be something like, oh, man, wow, I just admire Paul's faith. Like, I wish, I wish I could have faith like that. But I just I don't even know that I could never do what Paul did like, this is not about me. Like, I did not think I could do half the stuff 90% of the time. This is a story of how God can do abundantly more. This is a story of how God could work sometimes in spite of us. So anybody listening, you are already in the position for God to do something like to write a story like this. He wants to write a story like this. You look at who Jesus chose as his disciples. They were not who the world would have chosen. No, they were not they would not have chosen themselves. They did not feel sufficient. So anybody listening this This type of story can exist for you. Yeah, this is not about me. That's why it's mustard seed faith. It's not like, oh, Paul has great faith like, No, I had mustard. I had just enough to say, Okay, I'll step into the crazy, but God, I don't know what you're doing. So I wanted to I want to emphasize that everyone listening this is this can be a story for you as well,

Stephanie Olson: 1:00:17

well, and I appreciate that because you said something really important that really speaks to that. You said that still today you have trauma response that or that. And that just shows I think that's an important piece that this wasn't you just going, Okay, I'm getting beaten up. But guess what, I'm a Christian. And this is awesome. You know, that wasn't your experience. And you still reel from it sometimes. But God. And that's the beauty of the story that, that we are still human. And we are still, you know, flawed human beings. And we are still, but God uses that and uses us. And he loves to show off. And he couldn't show up if we were perfect. So, I mean, it's just amazing. So I that I really appreciate you saying that. Because I think so many people think, well, I've got to do this, or I have to be this and it really isn't about us, it's about him.

Paul Granger: 1:01:25

Or if I'm having a trauma response, that means that I failed, or I missed the mark, right? Like the Apostle Paul talks about having a thorn in his flesh. And there's a lot of theological debate about what that means. But if you read it, what it comes across to me is, is essentially whatever the actual thing is, it's like Paul saying, God, can you just take this away, because if you could take this away, I could serve you so much better, I would be so much more effective, I could do so much more for you. Like, it's clear that he wants to remove for God's glory. And he's three times he's in fact about it. And God doesn't take it away. One of the things that Paul realized this is one, it's to protect him from becoming conceited. Because he was a Pharisee. He was the Pharisee of Pharisees like he was. So like, that's within him. Like that's one of his imperfections that if he didn't have that thorn, he would start to think he's the Christian Christian. Right. Right. And it was so as a gift to him, to protect him from himself. But the other pieces what you noted, is it gives an opportunity for it to be about God, not just for others to see because there are people that are like, man, that Paul, he's flubbing over his words, but I'm feeling something. So that must be God and not Paul. And for Paul to say, Man, I was flooding over my words, but God still spoke. So that was God and not me. So yeah, like, we don't have to. It's eight. Yeah, it there can be some lament about the hard things that remain. Yeah. But we can also recognize that if God hasn't taken away, we prayed for him to take it away, that he might be using it or doing something through it, whether it is to protect us from ourselves, whether it is to build up something ourselves, or sometimes it's not even for us. That's right. So that as I'm lamenting about the trauma responses, I still feel someone else can hear and say, I lost my job too. And years later, I'm still feeling like afraid to send an email and I'm not alone. I'm not alone, right? Sometimes it's not even about us.

Stephanie Olson: 1:03:14

And we may never know. And we may never that's what and I think that's why you know, telling our stories, sharing the good and the bad and the awful that is really, I mean that. What a help that can be to someone else. And it shows it's not about us because we may never see the results. Love it. Okay, Paul, how can people find you?

Paul Granger: 1:03:41

Yeah, the easiest place is WWW dot Where did you see god.com? There you can find the podcast you can find things that I've written. I've got a devotional, it's a whole other story. But I felt like I was invited me to write a devotional on Revelation. I didn't even know that book. Wow, I want to read a book totally on that. But it's called a journey through revelation for the person who doesn't want to read Revelation. So you can find that on Amazon. But if you don't like this is not about making money. So there's a free PDF, feel free to download the free one, I don't care. But and within the podcast, there are some seasons that are parsed out on the webpage you can find the podcast and all your normal podcast. But there is a questioning series where God invited me to open a space for people to process issues they've got with God and Christianity and the church is pretty heavy. There's the healing season was last season, which I wanted to just be one episode ended up being 51 Episode Wow, journey for sure. And then I was going to take a break. And then I felt like I was saying now I want you to start another series. And so the season I'm in now is called sitting in suffering. And there's been some I mean, just some powerful stories. So if any of those resonate with where somebody is, you can find those directly parsed out but WWW dot where do you see I got.com And the idea there is not I do not want to promote myself or anything like that. What I'm trying to do what I feel like God's invited me to do is just to create spaces to process what is a hard thing? God is a hard thing to process. Yeah, life is a hard thing to process. So how can stories and introspection creating a space for all this be a place where we can come to know God a little deeper together?

Stephanie Olson: 1:05:23

That's fantastic. Well, I always ask one final question on my podcast, which you already answered, what does resilience mean to you? But is there anything you'd like to add to that? Because you answered it so beautifully?

Paul Granger: 1:05:38

Yeah, I think I'll emphasize one particular piece, you know, the way that we often talk about resiliency can seem out of reach, right? If, if you were just too heartbroken to crushed, it's been going on too long, you have nothing left. Resilience can just feel out of reach. Yeah. But what's beautiful, is that there is a God who made you, who knows you, who loves you, who sees you who is sitting with you in the pit, whose capacity is more than enough. So when your capacity is sapped and your knowledge of what to do is shot. Yeah, God is right there. And is enough and has enough. And he's not trying to accomplish fixing your situation. He's trying to do abundantly more than you can ask or imagine. And all you have to do, the simple invitation is to do what it was really hard for Peter to do in that moment, is just to take that next little step, even if it's into the dark, stormy waves that will probably kill you. Yeah, you're not stepping towards waves. You're stepping towards God saying, Alright, God, I'm gonna take you at your word. And if you look at scripture, that's the story of so many who were sapped of their capacity, didn't know what to do. So many of the people we celebrate, we were in those places. The same God that wrote amazing stories with their lives, is currently writing in America an amazing story for years. You just got to decide, are you willing to go along for the journey?

Stephanie Olson: 1:07:09

I love it. Thank you so much for your time, and your wisdom and your story. I have really enjoyed talking to you. And I am personally going to check out all your work, and I'm just thrilled you're doing some really good things. And I appreciate your obedience to God, and allowing him to use you in such an incredible way. So thank you so much, Paul.

Paul Granger: 1:07:35

My pleasure. And thank you and thank you for creating a platform for people to share stories and process it's so incredibly valuable like this. This conversation was a blessing for me as well. Yeah, they love you.

Stephanie Olson: 1:07:47

And I hope it was a blessing to you. I can only imagine that it was thank you so much for being a part of resilience in life and leadership, and we'll see you next time. Bye. Thank you for listening. Please share with anyone you think will benefit from this podcast.